Nations Forum
Tech Swapping... 44 replies
My suggestion involving the controversial "tech swapping". Although everyone can tech swap, it doesn't make it right. It defeats the purpose of having a 3 tech alliance limit because tech swapping is equivalent to having 5 techies. My suggestion would be to increase the tech alliance timer from 2 days to 30, and allow users to "reset" their techies twice per round to prevent someone from getting stuck with an inactive techie all round. Feedback please...
Whoever told you it was equivalent to having 5 techies should go do some first grade math.
But yeah, let's make it impossible to get ahead with effort. Let's make all researches and land worth 0 tech, and give everyone 220 "starting" tech. We'll have a pefect society where everyone is equal!
But yeah, let's make it impossible to get ahead with effort. Let's make all researches and land worth 0 tech, and give everyone 220 "starting" tech. We'll have a pefect society where everyone is equal!
BC, there would be plenty of effort even without tech swapping. When tech swapping is bein used, it can affect the round alot. You know aswell as I do that the only reason you tech swap is because everyone else doesn't do it and it gives you a considerable tech boost over the others because of this. Sure, everyone CAN do it but the thing is, everyone DOESN'T do it and everyone WON'T do it. If you think taking away tech swapping is going to break nations and make it completely effortless, you should go and do some first grade math.
tech swapping will be old news soon
Everyone won't do it >> they don't want to put an effort to the game >> they don't deserve to be anywhere near those who do.
"If you think taking away tech swapping is going to break nations and make it completely effortless, you should go and do some first grade math." - eh, what? I never said that. You don't make sense.
"If you think taking away tech swapping is going to break nations and make it completely effortless, you should go and do some first grade math." - eh, what? I never said that. You don't make sense.
Its the equivalent of having 6 techies for half the round.
What i keep seeing, is people going around rules by bending and distorting them to the breaking point.
"land passing" has become uber farms hitting each other and disbanding for one guy.
"multiple techies" has become tech swapping.
We have a 3 techie limit for a reason. All this does is go around it.
With that same thing in mind you might as well bring warbeast back, after all, if he uses a proxy to have multies, it wouldnt really be cheating right?
And im not calling anyone whos using these tactics a cheater, all theyre doing is bending the rules a bit.
What i keep seeing, is people going around rules by bending and distorting them to the breaking point.
"land passing" has become uber farms hitting each other and disbanding for one guy.
"multiple techies" has become tech swapping.
We have a 3 techie limit for a reason. All this does is go around it.
With that same thing in mind you might as well bring warbeast back, after all, if he uses a proxy to have multies, it wouldnt really be cheating right?
And im not calling anyone whos using these tactics a cheater, all theyre doing is bending the rules a bit.
You implied it...
Not bending.
There's no use to play a game unless you play to the maximum under the rules.
There's no use to play a game unless you play to the maximum under the rules.
No i didnt, i implied that if things continue to go as theyve been, we might as well just let everyone multi and go back to the 094094094 techie days, land passing, and wb multies.
We dont have as big an issue with multies not because we have a chunk of code in place but because the staff have made it a rule, and doled out punishments to discourage it.
Instead of looking for ways to re-code the game, all it takes is the staff to take a firm stance on the issue (assuming they want it to change) and punish the people who continue to do it.
BC isnt the only person to ever use tech swapping, hes just the most recent, and most likely, the best at it. One of the things Alex does -very- well is finding creative ways to get ahead and keep within the confines of the rule book.
We dont have as big an issue with multies not because we have a chunk of code in place but because the staff have made it a rule, and doled out punishments to discourage it.
Instead of looking for ways to re-code the game, all it takes is the staff to take a firm stance on the issue (assuming they want it to change) and punish the people who continue to do it.
BC isnt the only person to ever use tech swapping, hes just the most recent, and most likely, the best at it. One of the things Alex does -very- well is finding creative ways to get ahead and keep within the confines of the rule book.
BC you know this is merely a loophole in the rules and Guilda just summed up my entire thoughts exactly.
[Added at 05/16/2008 21:38:50 by Tooks]
I didn't mean YOU implied anything Guilda lol I was talking to BC
leave if you cant stand the game, nothing's stopping you
however us telling you to leave will make you stay longer to spite us right?
no- stick around- stick around forever and watch us "cheat" :) after all there is no 1st without a 2nd
however us telling you to leave will make you stay longer to spite us right?
no- stick around- stick around forever and watch us "cheat" :) after all there is no 1st without a 2nd
I'm not saying its cheating, Oracle. I merely think its something that should be removed from Nations.
Like 1 plane attacks [at one point legal – then removed (because it was silly)] hopefully this will be removed as well. .
But we can just do a verbal ban at the start – we don’t necessarily have to change the code. (ppl will see who does it – it will be in the news)
But we can just do a verbal ban at the start – we don’t necessarily have to change the code. (ppl will see who does it – it will be in the news)
What you guys don't realize is how the restriction that 2 day waiting to cancel an alliances makes no sense!!! It was put in wrong, thinking that was all the script needed!
I am almost positive Sean wasn't trying to make it so if you didn't like your tech alliance within the first 2 days, tough luck can't cancel.
I'm pretty sure he was trying to stop you from Gaining extra researches over and over!!! A glitch overlooked!
His intentions are implied within the script, it just didn't get added in exactly the right way.
What's needed is that you must wait 2 days before you can accept/offer an alliance! Besides maybe the first alliance, in the beginning of the round.
I am almost positive Sean wasn't trying to make it so if you didn't like your tech alliance within the first 2 days, tough luck can't cancel.
I'm pretty sure he was trying to stop you from Gaining extra researches over and over!!! A glitch overlooked!
His intentions are implied within the script, it just didn't get added in exactly the right way.
What's needed is that you must wait 2 days before you can accept/offer an alliance! Besides maybe the first alliance, in the beginning of the round.
and if one went inactive then ud want to leave the alliance sorry if it was put b4 just saying what was in my head cudnt be bothered to read the whole thing just tooks post
Seriously I dont get the big deal with it. If you put the effort in to get a tech reward then why not?
Everyone can do it?
Everyone can do it?
Tell me.
Has ANYONE one of you actually TALKED to SeanM before?
Has ANYONE one of you actually TALKED to SeanM before?
[Added at 05/17/2008 02:46:07 by Archer]
*ANY
no dont think ive heard of him lol
I have. He took me out to dinner ;D
Also, Sean didn't write that into Nations, Hite did.
~Iron
Also, Sean didn't write that into Nations, Hite did.
~Iron
_______________________________________
ps, this number is actually negative ^
Show that you love me and the puppies won't die!
Paypal: admin@wworkshop.com
_______________________________________
ps, this number is actually negative ^
Show that you love me and the puppies won't die!
Paypal: admin@wworkshop.com
_______________________________________
IronSinew (Admin) has posted: 610 forum posts
User ID: 8 / Joined: 2002-06-03
User ID: 8 / Joined: 2002-06-03
Ohhh... Dinner...
We all knows what comes after...Dinner.
We all knows what comes after...Dinner.
[Added at 05/17/2008 04:20:16 by Archer]
Desert![Added at 05/17/2008 04:58:35 by Archer]
Dessert*
take the alliance option out and be done w/ it.
[Added at 05/17/2008 05:31:29 by Al_capone]
or just put nations classic back on this site and let ppl choose which one they like to play.
Perhaps a vote is in order. Blake would it be possible for you to make a thread and we count the votes accordingly?
or if not....it will only draw a line a cause problems here in nations
[Added at 05/17/2008 07:19:48 by Al_capone]
seriously,being a vip is enough of a advantage......some of the points here dont hold any water.....cheating is cheating when you resort to the gray area of the rules.
I think a line has already been drawn, and honestly, i think a vote would end up with tech swapping being illegal.
I would imagine that most players do not approve, only the select minority who actually use the method.
Kudos for those that have used it to their advantage, but now that the issue has been pointed out, perhaps its time to make a decision, heck...
We have mods who say its always been ok, and some who said it was made illegal a while back.
Lets at least get a definitive answer on wether its legal or not, and not a "we see the issue, we will try and resolve it later" answer.
I would imagine that most players do not approve, only the select minority who actually use the method.
Kudos for those that have used it to their advantage, but now that the issue has been pointed out, perhaps its time to make a decision, heck...
We have mods who say its always been ok, and some who said it was made illegal a while back.
Lets at least get a definitive answer on wether its legal or not, and not a "we see the issue, we will try and resolve it later" answer.
i say you STFU... and let things be.. it's more a game of shifting allainces just as in RL...
O.O
O.O
Nataku, stfu
The big boys are talking.
The big boys are talking.
O.O arghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!11
Tech swapping was never supposed to be allowed. Thats why the wait time was put in place, to STOP people from doing it. This is just as bad as doing the multiple tech alliance glitch. Heck, it pretty much is doing the EXACT same thing, only a different way. Its cheating. Period.
If you want to talk about its ok because of the effort put into it, then I can come back and say, I can put the same amount of effort, or more, into making 10 accounts. Each from a different computer. Then, everyday, use all those accounts to attack the same person, whatever for my own good. I am pretty sure that would be cheating in the eyes of 99% of the people there. Effort has nothing to do with whether something is legal or not.
If you want to talk about its ok because of the effort put into it, then I can come back and say, I can put the same amount of effort, or more, into making 10 accounts. Each from a different computer. Then, everyday, use all those accounts to attack the same person, whatever for my own good. I am pretty sure that would be cheating in the eyes of 99% of the people there. Effort has nothing to do with whether something is legal or not.
I like how you showed your opinion. Well put!
i understand where both sides are coming from but at the end of the day, what BC is doing is NOT illegal therefore you shouldnt bash him for taking full advantage of something that will ultimately help his tech effort. thats my overall opinion. i tested the tech swap technique with BC myself 3 times last round and there is ALOT of effort put into this. bashing him for trying to be the best is just plain wrong. thats my honest opinion. BC tests the water and helps make this game evolve. for that i commend him.
when an admin comes and publicly states that this is a wrongful act, then i will change my opinion. but as of right now...it is what it is!
Cronus, I love you : ]
Cronus, even though you're one of the few who have a point, the next person other than the gamemaster(/admin/mod) who tries to confuse the community into thinking something is cheating when it is legal, is getting a warning.
why dont they make the tech alliances use turns so that people wont abuse the privlage of having tech allies
Here is an exemple of what should be done rather than mass argueing in a forums where obviously, nobody is really taking time to understand your point of view.
Ticket 1318 Information
Issue: Nations Suggestion
Message: To fix the tech swapping, make it so you cannot tech the same person twice in a round.
This will prevent abuse without banning the use.
Swapping 1 techie per round will require 30 users to help, while 2 techies will require 60 and 3, 90.
Hopefully this will be implemented soon as I think I am not the only one annoyed with all the fuss in the forums.
Submitted by: Sal
Ticket 1318 Information
Issue: Nations Suggestion
Message: To fix the tech swapping, make it so you cannot tech the same person twice in a round.
This will prevent abuse without banning the use.
Swapping 1 techie per round will require 30 users to help, while 2 techies will require 60 and 3, 90.
Hopefully this will be implemented soon as I think I am not the only one annoyed with all the fuss in the forums.
Submitted by: Sal
Like I said in the other thread, there is nothing confusing about it. There is no intention to "Confuse the community". It is simply an exploit, and some people are against it. That is the one side, the other side is... YOU BC. So if you think there's a problem here, why don't you take the right action and close the thread instead of threatening the people who oppose your opinion. It was nice to publicly dispute it for awhile, but when one side of the arguement closes the option for the other side to continue on with freedon of speech, then it is no longer up for discussion and topic should be just closed, and the next step would be to get ahold of the admins themselves for an official decision.
So basically,because a mod embraces a way of playing we are not allowed to comment?.Wish tom would come on and give his 2 cents.....if he says its ok....than massing begins until its changed.More ppl are against....im not trying to confuse anyone.....i have talked to ppl about it,read forums and seen it in chat.Not confusion,it is a complete fact that not even god can debate on this site.
Tom has till end part of round to give green light on fix,enough said...close the thread because its just a pissing contest now.
Tom has till end part of round to give green light on fix,enough said...close the thread because its just a pissing contest now.
Back off BC a bit SS, hes only doing his job as a mod.
His comments are in reference to people saying that tech swapping is cheating, when, as far as i know, this issue hasnt been brought up since the game changes, nor have any admins made a decision about it yet.
BC is NOT cheating, hes using the system to the maximum abilities.
I personally dont like what hes doing, but hes not as there has been no official decision, and even if there had been in the past- no recorded viewable rulebook, he isnt cheating.
We have a valid issue here and i think its been discussed between both threads enough, perhaps it about time to close this thread and get an admin to make an official decision.
His comments are in reference to people saying that tech swapping is cheating, when, as far as i know, this issue hasnt been brought up since the game changes, nor have any admins made a decision about it yet.
BC is NOT cheating, hes using the system to the maximum abilities.
I personally dont like what hes doing, but hes not as there has been no official decision, and even if there had been in the past- no recorded viewable rulebook, he isnt cheating.
We have a valid issue here and i think its been discussed between both threads enough, perhaps it about time to close this thread and get an admin to make an official decision.
Thanks, Guilda.
BC R TEH CHEATOR, HE BRIBED ME TO LOOSE!!
like i said before let them do the tech swapping but at the expence of losing turns that will allow people to be able to change tech partners as much as the turns will allow this will eliminate the big tech boost that people get and make the game more fair
After speaking with the gamemaster, it has been decided that Tech Swapping is, in fact, legal.
However, its completely understandable for players against the swapping to enforce their own brand of justice.
However, its completely understandable for players against the swapping to enforce their own brand of justice.
To be honest, Tom isn't the admin of Nations, I am. I have watched this "debate" (if one would call it that between the constant insult-jabbing and poo-flinging) for a while and have not given an "official announcement" regarding it for a very good reason, to view both sides.
Now, I also avoided commenting because I wanted to see a few things happen:
A) Mods step in and moderate. Meaning: They get the two topics seperated into their respective threads (Good job) and take some amount of control of the situation without immediately yelping for help from the admins.
B) Ideas come from the userbase that are actually discussed amongst each other. It's easy for one person to throw out an idea and say... "THIS IS THE ANSWER!" because they thought of it, therefore it's the best. I wanted to see some answers to the problems being broken down, analyzed, re-structured, re-analyzed and presented in the form of a help ticket. There's no point in trying to design a system to track information and keep a structure of hierarchy delegation if no one uses it.
C) I could gather enough information to completely understand how this proposed exploit worked, and why it was viewed as such.
D) IDEAS IDEAS IDEAS. Metal can only be forged after it's put through an immense amount of heat to help expose the impurities and imperfections. I would imagine that the "metal" for Nations would be better off going through this to really bring out the possibilities and ways to improve.
That being said, I believe I understand the position of both "sides" of this argument (whether or not any one person has a tag of any sorts or not doesn't matter to me) and I will try to come up with a solution that neither limits users from being placed in an uncomfortable position if an alliance drops, and to avoid the possibility of abusing certain other aspects.
Keep an eye out for the solution soon.
~Iron
Now, I also avoided commenting because I wanted to see a few things happen:
A) Mods step in and moderate. Meaning: They get the two topics seperated into their respective threads (Good job) and take some amount of control of the situation without immediately yelping for help from the admins.
B) Ideas come from the userbase that are actually discussed amongst each other. It's easy for one person to throw out an idea and say... "THIS IS THE ANSWER!" because they thought of it, therefore it's the best. I wanted to see some answers to the problems being broken down, analyzed, re-structured, re-analyzed and presented in the form of a help ticket. There's no point in trying to design a system to track information and keep a structure of hierarchy delegation if no one uses it.
C) I could gather enough information to completely understand how this proposed exploit worked, and why it was viewed as such.
D) IDEAS IDEAS IDEAS. Metal can only be forged after it's put through an immense amount of heat to help expose the impurities and imperfections. I would imagine that the "metal" for Nations would be better off going through this to really bring out the possibilities and ways to improve.
That being said, I believe I understand the position of both "sides" of this argument (whether or not any one person has a tag of any sorts or not doesn't matter to me) and I will try to come up with a solution that neither limits users from being placed in an uncomfortable position if an alliance drops, and to avoid the possibility of abusing certain other aspects.
Keep an eye out for the solution soon.
~Iron
_______________________________________
ps, this number is actually negative ^
Show that you love me and the puppies won't die!
Paypal: admin@wworkshop.com
_______________________________________
ps, this number is actually negative ^
Show that you love me and the puppies won't die!
Paypal: admin@wworkshop.com
_______________________________________
IronSinew (Admin) has posted: 610 forum posts
User ID: 8 / Joined: 2002-06-03
User ID: 8 / Joined: 2002-06-03
Thanks Iron! And I wasn't calling BC a cheater. He will win rounds whether he does it or not. Been a great player for a long time and will be for a long time.
I dont have much to say except i dont agree with it. Although i have done somethings myself that most wouldn't agree with. -_-
.....
[Added at 05/19/2008 06:54:34 by Murdock86]
confused with whats gone on :P