Nations Forum

The Rules of War 26 replies

True_Highwind said on: 2006-10-31 07:44 pm
4063 Days, 12 Hrs, 18 Min, 10 Sec ago
In real life there are some things that are considered "Rules of War." Like using Biological Weapons or Genocide. The use of such tactics, and I'm sure there are many more that I am missing/forgetting, are considered "War Crimes," a term we have all heard of (some of the most famous trails I can remember are from World War 2, which this game is based upon).

Now, in the real world, there is a Council and Committee which sets these rules/regulations, and has a militant arm to enforce said rules.

With regards to.. current tactics used within Nations, I'd like to suggest the formation of a "Rules of War" document for Nations. Now, this Document will take some time to write up, and will require the input of many people form all walks within Nations; from well respected people, newer people, and people who are considered to be some of the worst offenders.

We will also need ways to govern these rules, ways to enforce them, and a Committee to discuss any offenses and degrees of punishment for infringements.

For the Committee, I suggest we have a panel of people who are considered well respected and upstanding "citizens" within Nations, one where very few positions are finite. These positions will regularly be rotated (with certain exceptions, which I will get to shortly), and new members will be voted in based on Nations interaction. Each member who is leaving the Committee is allowed to select up to 3 people for the next Committee membership (no one can be sponsored that way for at least two rotations of the community), and then the Nations community can vote for the people they wish to see as the next Committee (current Committee members, and all potential members are bared from voting).

Now, on to the places that are not rotated. Within the Committee is a single person who has the powers to enact punishments based on the rulings of the Committee. This "Chairperson" will be a finite member of the Committee, and also bared from any votes for the committee. If this person is found to be dealing out unfair punishments, ones that are not agreed upon by the Committee or goes to far, they are removed form their position and another Chairperson is elected by the community based on willing members of the current Committee.

Now, the actual document for the Rules of War should be written by people who have been in Nations for some time, and looked over by not only the Administration of the site, but the Mods (who should be aware of the Document), and some newer members, who will have to abide by these rules as well. With so many people looking over said documentation, it will make sure that it is fair, legit, and everything is spelled correctly!

All rules of the Committee will be made based off the Rule of War Document, which if accepted as cannon for Nations should be posted. Also, the Chairperson will also post any results of their findings/rulings. All votes by the committee will be confidential (though the Committee Members will be public), but their findings will be posted for Nations members to view.

If a person has reason to believe someone is infringing on the Rules of War, any part of it, they are to report it to a Committee Member (evidence will be collected later), and a investigation will be carried out. When the rulings are found, the person being accused will be notified of the decision, and their punishment. Then, it will be posted on the Forums for all to see (the accused will have the right to remain confidential if they so desire).

Now, I'd like to hear any comments about my suggestion from members of the community, the Administration, and the Moderators. I don't want anyone to be flaming me for my suggestion, if you want to do that, find somewhere else to do it. This is a serious thread, and something that I have taken a great deal of time (people who have known me for long, will recognize past ideas I have suggested within here) to iron out a lot of this, and to type this out. If anyone has suggestions, comments, please post them. However, please don't post something like "I want to help make the Document" or "I want to be on the Committee," such things have not been decided. If this is approved by the Administration, then things will begin to work in that direction!

So, anything?
Space-Monkey said on: 2006-10-31 07:51 pm
4063 Days, 12 Hrs, 10 Min, 53 Sec ago
Well, I do support the idea. However it would be rather hard to be set up, but once done, could open doors to many new ideas to be put into place.
Ilidan said on: 2006-10-31 08:06 pm
4063 Days, 11 Hrs, 56 Min, 44 Sec ago
*takes a deep breath*

Basically, you're talking about the United Nations here. Clearly. And we all see the problems with the real UN.

Here's what I have to say to a Nations UN.

It's a GREAT idea, and I entirely support it, but there's problems inherent in it.

1 - Appointment of Members

Voting commitee members is simply out of the question. Alliances and bribery. Remember, most of the people here are young and impressionable. There is a lot of potential for corruption here. Very few people will do this "out of the goodness of their hearts". So it would be either Blake himself appointing a committee, or Moderators electing it.

2 - Objeectivity

Whoever is on the commitee must have no loyalties. That means it has to be people who are not in a clan. Even better would be people who don't have allies, or people who don't even play the game at all.

3 - The Rules

What are they?
If/When this happens, the first order of business must be for the users involved is to figure out what the rules are.

4 - Enforcement

So what? We just destroy the violater's nation? So what? Do you really think that WARBEAST or whoever would care if we obliterated their nation? So they rebuild and do it again?
Could the commitee as a group give a warning, or ban someone?

I have more, but I forgot.
I'll post them later, I'm tired.
Sal said on: 2006-10-31 10:04 pm
4063 Days, 9 Hrs, 58 Min, 0 Sec ago
I'll make this short and simple.

It cant work.

Why?

If someone goes agaisnt the War Rules, as peter said...what are we going to do? Attack him? Some people might wanna waste a few turns on that guy, but not everyone. Going as far as warning/banning a user for that would be ridiculous. The whole point of the game is to be at war, but we'd set in rules as to how the war must be done? Game won't be as fun.

IMO, I bet I wouldnt agree with a couple of rules we'd come up with.
ChaoticLaw said on: 2006-10-31 10:09 pm
4063 Days, 9 Hrs, 53 Min, 35 Sec ago
This idea has been brought up before, and usually falls through because of complications. It would be a LOT of work, but could potentially have a great pay off.
IronSinew (Admin) said on: 2006-10-31 10:28 pm
4063 Days, 9 Hrs, 34 Min, 29 Sec ago
I agree there needs to be some more clan influence and/or changes. I'll outline a few ideas I've been rolling around in my head.

1. New / More / Custom ranks
I want to add the ability to assign ranks, permissions, and names to a customizable ranking system. Give the clan a clearer hierarchy system, but not necessarily assign someone any powers over the clan.

2. Join sequence change
How someone enters a clan needs to be changed from just enter name and password. I was thinking invitations to clans, or a list that a member (with proper permissions) can add a name to a list so recruit can join, or application style, where a member (with proper permissions again) can accept or deny applications to clan.

3. Possible clan benefits / penalties
Being part of a clan can have it's benefits, but it needs to have penalties as well. I have been contemplating a few things.
-Membership fees to stay within a clan
-Bonuses for clan members based on prestige points (I'll explain further)
I also thought of a "Clan bank" .. but then shot it down due to too many loopholes/issues it would create.

4. Leadership roles / safeguards
If a leader becomes inactive, in order to remove the leader the majority of rank 2 members must vote him down. This being said, rank 1 is considered clan master. The roles will be to assign privileges to other members in what they are allowed to access (invite, promotion, demotion, etc). In order for a rank 2 to be promoted to rank 1, again the majority must agree and vote member up.

5. New requirements to start a clan.
In order to establish an official clan, it must begin with at least 4 members. One rank 1 (owner), and at least three rank 2 members.

6. Clan bonuses
I've been thinking, too many people just join clans for no reason. They need to have a purpose. If you pay a membership fee, and earn a bonus for that fee, they begin to have a purpose. An example of a level 2 clan (meaning they have 1 clan point to invest) the leader could put it into "War Machine 1." Meaning, you have a 3% discount on military unit costs, increase attack / defense rating by 2% and decrease funds gained per turn by 2.5%

7. WARS
Now, I capitalize that for good measure. It will MEAN SOMETHING to war with someone. It can be an official declaration between two clans, where both leaders agree to a length of war period. Land taken, military units destroyed and money razed can all be kept track of to contribute to an overall "score" of the war for each clan, to determine a winner. Winner can receive undetermined prize or collection from game or opposing clan.

These are just a few things that I've been thinking about. Something to chew on.

~Tarsonis21
Beat said on: 2006-11-01 12:01 am
4063 Days, 8 Hrs, 1 Min, 6 Sec ago
Wow. Nice thread, nice replies, superb ideas. The thread got me fantasizing and daydreaming during work.

I support to the whole hog for any changes/ideas mentioned. They are brilliant! Though not all of'em might be a good tweak, but changes are an essential step to become better.

@Highwind : For the "rules of war" thingy, you ain't the first one to bring it up. You're just the first one to organize it in such an impressive manner(which is good!). But as Sal said, it's not quite possible for the enforcement part to succeed due to the nature of the game and the role of the administrative/moderation team. Alas, let's hope Tarsy can do something about it...

A side note: you should get back to the game. IC could use some action. It's currently filled with clown-face-avatar-people which is not doing enough propaganda!

[Added at 11/01/2006 01:04:38 by Beat]
Ok, my firefox browser did not show that last post you made, Highwind. So, pardon me for blurbing out things you've covered or addressed to in that last post of yours ;)
ChaoticLaw said on: 2006-10-31 10:36 pm
4063 Days, 9 Hrs, 25 Min, 52 Sec ago
Tars, I love these new clan ideas. I hope implementation or further details will come soon!
True_Highwind said on: 2006-10-31 11:47 pm
4063 Days, 8 Hrs, 15 Min, 30 Sec ago
Ok, I'll post a few responses to what has been posted thus far.

Space-Monkey, I am aware this will be very difficult to set up, and for the first while, it will also be difficult to enforce (as I'd imagine we'll have more then a few people testing the waters). That is why I am posting it in a open forum rather then just talking to Blake directly about it. Through opening it to the people, who will ultimately be responsible for it, we'll get ideas to improve it, and make it feel more like the people are able to contribute to make this game better! No offense Blake.

The points Illidan has made:

1 - Appointment of Members

Indeed you are correct that there are many people who are young and incapable of deciding for the good of Nations rather then themselves, their friend, or their clans. And yes, there are few people who will do it out of the goodness of their heart; after all, this will mean a lot of extra work on their part, just like being a Mod. But to give sole responsibility to Blake of selecting a committee will take time, time that he could better spend correcting bug, fixing issues of the game, or making the game better as a whole! As for Mods selecting this committee, again, that takes away form their time which could be better spent elsewhere. Perhaps they will become members of said Committee, perhaps they will just get the chance to vote for other members. Though it is risky, and may be changed after a few elections, we need to have faith in our fellow man about this committee. It is a group that is to help the players, so why not let the players have a KEY part in its management?

2 - Objectivity

Your right to a degree. People who have no clan loyalties will be good candidates, as they won't show any favoritism to their clan mates suggestions.

But, how many people stay clanless for long? Granted I have not played for some time, but I'd wager most people who actively play don't stay clanless for long, even if it is not one of the "ranking clans." Now, you suggested people ho no longer play Nations; how many people who have left the game will care enough about it to take on EXTRA responsibility to help make it better? Granted there will be some, but I doubt we'd find many. Even if we did, their is a chance they wouldn't be as effective on the committee as a member of the community would be!

3 - The Rules

Yes, the first order of business would be to establish rules for this. I said as mush in my original post. If this idea is accepted by Blake, I will select a few people; and for the record, I deliberately posted a few holes in my original idea to get ideas of good, intelligent people who would excellent candidates to help create this document; to help create a fair, and complete list of rules, and punishments for this "Online United Nations."

4 - Enforcement

First of all, I did not mention names, and nor should you. I'll leave that part alone.

One to what you were getting at, aside form naming names, it is obvious that simply destroying a officers Nation would do little to no good (although it may, if the infringement is minor enough). Punishments would more suit the crime, like if a person hijacks a clans webpage/forum, they may be form playing Nations for a set period of time, and on a second infringement, for good (not just account, IP address too, if at all possible). Although, the punishments/enforcements will be outlined when the actual list of rules are made. So currently, their are none set up...

Now, Illidan, you said that their are more ideas, suggestions or whatever, but you forgot them when you were posting. I welcome any and all POSITIVE feedback to this idea, as right now, it is still in the drafting stage. So, post whatever you think could help to make this idea better.

Now, Sal, I think I covered most of your issues (at least what you have posted thus far) in my responses to Illidan. But, I will speak to you directly now. Seeing as this will be a different almost like a governmental/policing body for Nations alone, having every member within Nations attack a single person for an infringement of any set rules is, as you said (though not in as many words), a stupid idea. Like I said to Illidan, the rules have not been set because it'd be stupid of me, or anyone, to make a set of rules that is not:

A) made up by a GROUP of intelligent people, possibly selected by the players of Nations itself

and

B) approved by the Administration (Blake)

When this idea is more finite, and hopefully approved by Blake, a group of people will be selected, possibly by Blake himself, to create this list of rules. Obviously with it, will come a list of punishments for violating these rules.

As you said, this is a war game, like war, there are certain things that are just not done. But, unlike war, this is a game, and in a game we can make things impossible to do.. things that are immoral and just wrong to do, such as hijacking a clan.

Now, CL my old friend, I am aware that a lot of this has been suggested before. But, I have built on what has been suggested, and not only wish to improve on the ideas of others, but make it more enforceable. If it is set into place, Blake may grant the players the ability, or someone who specifically is set to Nations affairs, but not the programming end, to improve the game in respect that will allow Blake to focus on programming rather then stupid petty squabbles that are considered immoral or childish by the majority.

Your right, for the entire committee and specifically the Chairperson, this will be a hell of a lot of work. I don't claim to know how difficult it is to be a Mod, but it could potentially be more difficult then being a mod, cause you are dealing with only a specific game, rather then posting in a forums (as I understand the Mods duties... forgive me if I am mistaken).

Now Blake, I love a lot of the ideas you have for clan improvement, and have been actively suggesting some of them for a long time! But, I have to respond to each one with regards to my idea; well, I'll try in some cases, as it may be difficult. And, for Illidan, Sal, CL and Space-Monkey, I'm sorry if this is a little more positive then what I've said to you..

1. New / More / Custom ranks

This idea is indeed gold! At least the idea about a rank higher the SuperAdmin (or at least limiting it to a single SA). It will eliminate (potentially, at least) the hijacking of clans, to a degree. As, a spy may be VERY dedicated.

With my idea of a Committee, if decided that each clan has a representative in their committee (which, will need to be further refined, possibly the top 10 clans or something), each clan could have a specific rank for that. Although, that would go against something Illidan said, as they'd be too loyal to their clan (too lean on punishments etc.) and harder on other clans..

2. Join sequence change

Having a actually join sequence would make recruitment easier, and better. It'd be more uniform to some other net games. Combined with your first idea, this could be a very good idea, as long as BOTH are implemented.

This doesn't really effect my idea at all.

3. Possible clan benefits / penalties

Membership fees, what would they go to? Upping the amount of text a clan page is allowed? To implement this, you'd need to have a clan bank, though it'd also have to have some reason for that... possible a clan military to help in defense/offense of other clans? Or possibly a clan fortress?

You mentioned prestige points to me specifically earlier, but that was for clans specify, and possible change slightly based on government types. You'd need to further expand on this idea before you get too many comments on it.

4. Leadership roles / safeguards

I've been saying we need a rank above SuperAdmin for ages now! Like I said earlier, this would prevent clan hijacking, which would be something that would definitely be a rule (with a punishment, of course) in my planned committee.

5. New requirements to start a clan.

This is a very, very good idea. Though, I suggest it needs further refinement to your idea (more amount of people maybe). To this extant, it'd help the partial idea of having each clan have a representative on the committee.

If each clan has a representative on the committee, they'd have to be a smaller part, like below the actual committee. Maybe have the Chairperson, the Committee voted by the players of Nations, and maybe a representative from each clan (thought we'd need to reduce the number of clans considerably).

6. Clan bonuses

Isn't this the same as your 3rd idea?

7. WARS

This would add a true diplomatic aspect to the game. As, clans would be able to actually declare war on others, more so then on the forums. Although, I don't think clans should have to agree to declarations of war, nor to surrenders. After all, would any country, or group, say "We want to declare war on you, ok?" "Sure! Lets fight!" Nope. So it shouldn't be quite that way... unless it is a friendly war, to spice up clan life.

To implement one of your past ideas into my own, you could use the clan bank as a punishment for not accepting a surrender. Or, if a clan surrenders cause they can't fight (like, a clan who is dominating the top 50, attacks a clan who really isn't their match; or has dominated them to that point, but won't accept their surrender for whatever reason), they are penalized though the clan bank, or by destroying the offending clans military... I know it is a little harsh (they last part at least) but, punishments MUST be harsh to make sure the rules are followed.

Now, if anyone else has further ideas/comments about my ideas. Or, of course, Blake's clan improvements, feel free to post them. Your input not only further improves this idea, but helps to improve Nations as a whole!
Stormbringer said on: 2006-11-01 06:07 am
4063 Days, 1 Hr, 54 Min, 57 Sec ago
True_Highwind, yours is a noble idea but I have to agree with Sal And CL on this one. It would just take far too much cooperation from all the members / users here. I just don't think this is possible as no matter how low one or some would stoop they will always find people to support them.

Tars, I think most if not all your ideas would be welcomed. It would add a much needed depth to the clan system.
JEBStuart said on: 2006-11-01 07:09 am
4063 Days, 53 Minutes, 21 Seconds ago
Good ideas...but hard to enforce...True_Highwind--can you change that font to something brighter?..hard to read!!
Sal said on: 2006-11-01 08:31 am
4062 Days, 23 Hrs, 31 Min, 47 Sec ago
Notice how Tar did not speak about in-game rules, but more about in-clan changes?

Anyways, I agree with everything tar said, except this one thing i'm not sure about. Did he mention we'd have to pay real $ to be part of a clan? Or to lead one?

"-Membership fees to stay within a clan" -Tar

Wouldnt that make all VIPs even stronger than they already are? (I know users could pay, but if users arent VIP, the reasons why they're not apply for not being able to pay any sort of fee most of the time)
ChaoticLaw said on: 2006-11-01 08:46 am
4062 Days, 23 Hrs, 16 Min, 0 Sec ago
Sal, I think what Tar meant by "membership fees" is that your nation would have to pay the fee to the clan. If you had to actually pay to be in/lead the clan the whole system would come toppling down.
True_Highwind said on: 2006-11-01 01:17 pm
4062 Days, 18 Hrs, 45 Min, 15 Sec ago
Ok, response time again. And, like before, I'll comment to everyone.

First to Beat. Your right, I did borrow portions of my idea from ideas of other people. But, like you said, I refined it to a better, more through idea. To be effective, there will need to be a separate branch of Administration/Moderation, that is for Nations alone. I know you saw that, but I am reiterating it again... lol

Also, to respond to your side note: I'm sorry, but I won't be coming back to play Nations. For all you know, Beat, they are currently in the works of planning something big.. you know how the truly good wars go, they take some time to plan.

Now Stormbringer, the idea would take a lot of cooperation from the Nations community; and yes, it will be difficult because some people are a littler immature, and will attempt to abuse this system. It may take some time, but it will end up being another large, and for the better might I add, improvement to Nations.

JEBStuart, sorry, but their is only one gray font... I type in gray.

Again Sal, your comments continue to amaze me at how intelligent the comments and opinions of the users of Nations truly can be. Thank you for your input. Now, you are right that Blake's changes are about the actual clan system, and not about rule amendments. However, with changes to the system, and people going along the borderline of the ToU (but, due tot he fact that they are not technically breaking it, the staff is not able to do a thing), rules do need to be changed and/or new ones put into effect to deal with less then desirable actions within Nations.

Like CL said in response, I'm pretty sure Blake meant that membership fees would be taken out of a Nations bank account, not a players. Although, it may come down to one day VIPs get some extra advantages within clans, as they do in Nations normally now. Of course, don't quote me on that!
Nataku said on: 2006-11-02 12:26 pm
4061 Days, 19 Hrs, 36 Min, 21 Sec ago
could there be groups of clans that could be the aggresors if this thing were put in place... i don't mean imaturally but to have like a huge scale war.

with that lil system a multi clan war would be more feasable.
Ilidan said on: 2006-11-02 12:38 pm
4061 Days, 19 Hrs, 24 Min, 35 Sec ago
Make it like the UN!

It would be a two way membership: By being members, a clan would gain a level of protection agains certian actions. However, for this protection they also agree to help the Commitee enforce actions it would take..
Nataku said on: 2006-11-06 02:28 am
4058 Days, 5 Hrs, 33 Min, 51 Sec ago
i declare role as head honcho
Ilidan said on: 2006-11-06 01:49 pm
4057 Days, 18 Hrs, 13 Min, 43 Sec ago
Nothing personal, Nataku, but you suck. Forget it.
True_Highwind said on: 2006-11-10 07:52 pm
4053 Days, 12 Hrs, 10 Min, 48 Sec ago
First of all, I'd like to apologize for not responding sooner. I have not been able to access NetNexus for a little while... not sure why, but, I can not!

To your first comment Nataku; as Sal pointed out, people will not want to use their turns to attack people who break the rules. Can you honestly say that you would use your turns to attack someone who breaks rules?

Even if people did decide to attack these people, or if they are given "free attacks" on these people, who's to say they care about what happens to their Nation? Some would, yes, but I think a majority of people who break the rules (and the rules would involve major things, not really minor infractions) prolly don't care about their Nation.

And to your second comment: this would require someone impartial, as Illidan has pointed out int he past, to be in charge of this. If it goes off like I suggest, this person will have Admin/Moderator like powers, so a impartial person is a MUST.

Now, Illidan, we all know the UN is a joke. Imposing sanctions on countries doesn't work, telling countries not to do something doesn't work.. granted, both in only some cases.

If you mean have it based on the UN as in have clans place a representative in it, that would only work to a degree. Each person will vote on the judgment of people who break the rules, can you honestly say that if a person who is in your clan broke the rules you can make a decision objectively? In some cases, the answer will be yes, but in a majority of cases (at least, with how Nations is), the answer will be no.

Also Illidan, don't call names, it is childish.
Ilidan said on: 2006-11-12 11:03 pm
4051 Days, 8 Hrs, 59 Min, 36 Sec ago
Oh Windy. I said he sucks. That's not a name, it's a verb.

/win


But yeah, that's what I meant about the UN, and another thing:
In order to gain the protection of member clans, they must offer something: The commitment to defend other members!
That not only provides protection, it's a deterrant against people taking advantage of loopholes in the rules system.

But yes, the real United Nations is a joke because of the selfish nature of people. The same would probably happen here, anyway. But this is what I meant about making it like the UN
SM-Lord_Cyric said on: 2006-11-13 09:02 am
4050 Days, 23 Hrs, 45 Sec ago
Hello peoples,

I might have a couple of suggestions to had.

1. True_highwind, i think you ar wrong about the UN, Japan did respect the UN wishes during over 40 years.

2. Since massing a player as a respond to an offence is useless ( as said before, it been tested a lot in the past ) I think it would be more usefull to incapacitates them for a time.

Exemple,

Someone use a illigal strategie to attack another player, as punishment, some or all of it ways of attack are remove or block ( like the missiles )for a set periode of time, 1-3 rounds.

The second possibilty would be in about the same script a clan membership, if a player does some illegal action then some of is income is taken as a fine, something like '' income total - ( 0.25 income total ) = income receive '' wich would seriously slow down a player who want to get to the top 50. Once again, it could be kept for longer then a round so it would be really troublesome for the offensive player.

That about it, but you guys are right we will need at least a mod to impose such a sanction.

Also, a player cannot have no allegience, even a newb would favor the clan/player he consider have the best or worst name. We would probably have to had a couple of players, for a total of +/- 13 and if a player is part of the clan affected by the decision, then he is remove from the final decision board.

I would simplify a lot and also bring the corruption in contrast. Dont forget that in the real world, in those kind of situation, there probably is still a lot of corruption going around, just look at the last federal election in florida were some bulletin bags got ''lost'' .

ouf, now i,ll be waiting for comments

Good day

Lord Cyric
Ilidan said on: 2006-11-13 09:29 am
4050 Days, 22 Hrs, 33 Min, 36 Sec ago
Where the hell did he come from?!


I like the income penalty idea, but that's probably too much work for Blake to do.

And the committee would be unable to do it themselves.
Mdevilz said on: 2007-02-03 09:49 am
3968 Days, 22 Hrs, 13 Min, 17 Sec ago
*bump*

how is everyone today?

~mdevilz
WARBEAST said on: 2007-02-03 02:35 pm
3968 Days, 17 Hrs, 27 Min, 19 Sec ago
"and ANYONE whom DOESNT play by these rules, what R U GOING 2 DO?


U R ALL making rules, BUT 1 COMES ALONG WHOM does NOT play by SUCH, what do U do?



MUHAHAHAHA


beside WHINING and CRYING!



HeHeHe!
DC-Chinaman_MP said on: 2007-02-04 05:21 am
3968 Days, 2 Hrs, 40 Min, 57 Sec ago
Hey Highwind!
Ilidan said on: 2007-02-04 09:32 am
3967 Days, 22 Hrs, 30 Min, 6 Sec ago
As we've said WARBEAST, there is the honour system. Short of that, there really isn't anything we can go
HHHMaster said on: 2007-02-05 11:55 am
3966 Days, 20 Hrs, 6 Min, 57 Sec ago
Hey Chinaman.